Were there any doubts that we’re living in peak ’90s nostalgia, the runaway popularity of FX on Hulu’s Love Story – chronicling the romance between John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bessette – puts it to bed. The nine-episode series, with the finale airing next Thursday (March 26), has been a boon for the streaming platform, delivering record numbers. And for the multitudes who’ve tuned in, they’ve been treated to a healthy dose of era-specific music, to the point that it’s almost become another character in the show, it’s so front and center.
From Primal Scream to Kate Bush to The Stone Roses to Portishead, the creators have gotten it right where so many others have failed miserably. Episode five kicks off with a lengthy stretch of Better Than Ezra’s “Good,” which topped the Modern Rock charts in 1995. The band, led by frontman and guitarist Kevin Griffin and bassist Tom Drummond, have had a long and winding career, one that’s seen its share of ups and downs.
Just a few years after forming, co-founder and original guitarist Joel Rundell took his own life. Faced with an uncertain future, they continued as a trio, following up “Good” with this like “Desperately Wanting,” “One More Murder,” and “At the Stars.” Into the ‘00s, despite an impressive run of record label bad luck, Better Than Ezra managed not to fall into the trap of becoming a legacy with songs like “Extra Ordinary” and “Juicy” ear-worming into the public consciousness.
Much of the group’s continued success can be attributed to the enigmatic Griffin, who’s written songs for artists as varied as Blondie, Train, The Struts, and Violent Femmes, while having his material covered by heavy hitters like Taylor Swift. Two years ago, he put out his first book, The Greatest Song, a business parable that resonated deeply beyond the music industry.
Tonight (March 19) at The Ridgefield Playhouse in Connecticut, Better Than Ezra kicks off a short trek through New England that continues Friday (March 20) at The Cabot in Beverly, heads south to the Greenwich Odeum in Rhode Island Saturday (March 21), then to the Nashua Center for the Arts in New Hampshire Sunday (March 22).
Currently at work on his second book venture, “a fiction thriller comedy set in New Orleans,” Griffin sat down with Vanyaland for a 617 Q&A (Six Questions; One Recommendation; Seven Somethings). This is his second time partaking in the series, with his first a decade ago. We talked about the current surge of interest in the ‘90s, paling around with Sean Penn, and the surprising genesis of his alt-rock supergroup Ezra Ray Hart, with Sugar Ray’s Mark McGrath and Tonic frontman Emerson Hart.
:: SIX QUESTIONS
The last time we talked, we discussed how people have an inherent need to pigeonhole artists, whether it’s justified or accurate, like calling Better Than Ezra a one-hit wonder or a ‘90s band. Lately, you’ve seemed to embrace a bit of the wistfulness surrounding the latter. We’ve seen this before with other eras – the ‘80s, for instance – and when I’d ask why that time was being looked back on so fondly, people tell me it’s because it was such a fun period, and that’s all everyone wants: A carefree, fun time. Objectively, the ‘90s weren’t such a fun time, so what do you chalk up the renewed interest? Is it just time, because everything is cyclical, or is there something deeper happening?
Oh, well, I actually have to disagree. I think the ’90s were a fun time. A lot of people say it’s the greatest decade ever – and no cell phones. It was really the last decade, towards the end, ‘96, ‘97, we started getting those big clunky cell phones, but there was no social media or anything like that. I think there was a romance to… Well, look, that’s why I think that the Love Story [with] John F. Kennedy Jr. series is such a phenomenon because even millennials and kids are getting into it. And for better or for worse, all these kids are starting to smoke. In L.A., young people are smoking cigarettes.
But I don’t know. I think the bygone decades always have some romance to them. I thought the ’90s were a lot of fun, and you didn’t have the ubiquitous cell phone on you, and it was a time of more connection.
But really, when it comes to the music, the music has a definite sound. The ’90s production was a lot more band-oriented, more raw, at least in rock and alternative. It was not uncommon to see a three-piece rock band like Better Than Ezra at the top of the charts, and that was a great time. But when you’re in the midst of a decade or an era, you think, “Oh, this will never sound dated or like a specific time.” And then enough time goes by, and then it does. When you listen to Lithium on SiriusXM, you definitely hear a sound, but it’s really refreshing. And I work with all these young artists here in Nashville, and they want to do stuff that sounds like the ’90s, and that’s kind of fun and cool and very easy for me.
You did The ’90s Cruise earlier this year, and I know you’re close with some of those acts, particularly Tonic and Sugar Ray, but you also had TLC and En Vogue on there. What was it like seeing them and being a part of that package?
It was actually refreshing, because a lot of times when we’ve done some ’90s shows or a package, it is just the other rock bands. I had not seen Chilli from TLC in a long time, and she’s so sweet and cool. I was a big Kid ‘n Play fan, and I’m hanging out with a Kid – Kid and Play, and they were just so cool. It was neat. And then EMF, I’d never met those guys, that British band from the early ’90s. It was a lot of fun. I didn’t know what to think when I went into it, but once I was there, I had a blast. And hanging out with Downtown Julie Brown and Matt Pinfield, it was great to see everybody still doing what we love to do and having great careers and families. And yeah, it was a real pleasure.
You mentioned Love Story. It’s obviously such a huge topic right now, a huge show. Did you know that you were going to have such a prominent placement in the show?
Well, they reached out to us about approving the scene, and you do the deal and the terms and what you get paid and all that stuff, but we had no idea. A lot of times it’s just incidental music in the background of the middle of an episode, and you wonder, “Really? Was all that work for…” You can’t even tell… they could have just used anything. So, it was a real pleasure when the first two minutes of episode five was “Good.” And it’s been fun to see the reaction from our fans, but our socials have just gone through the roof, and it’s just kind of nuts. So that’s cool. And we were super grateful that we got that placement.
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And you’ve been watching the show, I’m guessing.
Oh, yeah.
How great is the way they’ve been doing the music in it overall? From episode one on, they just nailed it.
They really nailed the breadth of ’90s music. And there’s Cocteau Twins. And well, they had a new band, Japanese Breakfast does “Head Over Heels,” which I think is an ’80s song, but it’s just so cool. It’s timeless. There was just so much great music, but still, there was a lot of bad music too in the ’90s, just like any decade. But these guys really chose cool music, and it’s not just one genre. It’s pop and experimental, and alt-rock. And if you look, there’s an official Love Story playlist on Spotify. It’s good company. So, I’m proud to be… you want your music to be remembered in a certain way and have your peers you think are cool be a part of it. So that’s nice.
We’re getting to a point where artists of your era who started when you started, touring with only a single original member for a variety of reasons. It could be anything; could be lawsuits, could be people passed away. How lucky do you feel to have such a long-running partnership with Tom?
It’s great. And my wife said, last night she was like, “When did you guys have your first rehearsal?” And I was like, “It was March of 1988, 38 years ago,” which is crazy to consider. There’s a reason most bands don’t stick around. Bands are like a marriage or a relationship, and you get to see the best of each other, but you also get to see the worst when you’re tired and through the years. And Tom and I have a really special relationship. And then our whole band, Jim Payne has been with us since the mid ’90s. Our drummer, Michael Jerome, has been with us since 2008. So, on days off, we call each other up. “Let’s go hang out. Let’s go grab lunch.” So, I think we’re a rarity in that.
I have this really unique Better Than Ezra memory from 2002, 2003 when you guys were playing the Bottle & Cork in Dewey Beach, Delaware. It was the middle of summer, and there was something going on with the air conditioning in the building. So, you, Tom, and I were just sitting in a rental car with the air conditioning on blast in the idling car before the show.
[laughs] I remember that.
And you had gone pretty deep on Joel’s passing. And I’m curious as to now, some 25 years since then, 35 years since he passed, how you look back on it. Are you dissociated to the point where you look at yourself as just a kid who suddenly had to deal with this awful situation, or is it still really clear and present to you?
No, it’s still very present and clear. And I was speaking of the ’90s cruise, with [SiriusXM DJ] Kat Corbett, we did a Behind the Music, and I was telling the timeline of the band, and I got to the part about Joel passing away, Joel Rundell. And to see people’s reaction, you’re reminded of what a big moment it was and what a terrible moment it was. And before I was talking about Joel, I was talking about our original drummer and the way we lived when we started off, our first shows were actually in Boston, and how our drummer had money because he had been shot by the girlfriend of his ex-girlfriend. And so he had money, and people were like, “Wait a second, murder – not murder, attempted murder, suicide, all these things.” And I was like, “Wow, we’ve been through a lot,” and through it all were the friendships and then music and stuff.
But no, it’s still really clear, and I talk about it a lot. So, I’m not dissociated by it at all. It doesn’t seem distant, but it was definitely a moment that kept coming back, just like those traumatic moments are in your life. They’ll affect you at certain times.
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Was “Just One Day” the first song where you really addressed it?
No, I think, let’s see… I think…even songs like “In the Blood” and other songs – “This Time of Year” – are about death in a lot of ways and memories. But “Just One Day” was written for another artist, a guy named Jeremy Lister, and he cut it on an EP, and it just didn’t… He did a great version, but I was like, “Wait a second, this song was too good to never be heard,” so we had to put it out. And yeah, I love that song. Good call. That video popped up on something recently, and I was reminded of shooting the video in Houston, and then it was just a really good song.
Do you ever think about the trajectory of the group had Joel not passed? Do you think it would have changed the sound of Better Than Ezra?
Oh, well, I think we may have moved. We were kind of flirting, at the time, with moving to Atlanta. I don’t think that would’ve worked out. You just never know. I mean, throughout your life, great moments and tragic moments push you down a different path. And there’s the saying, “You don’t want to turn your back on the past or shut the door on it.” You know? That’s part of your story, and every minuscule little thing brought you to where you are, and where I’m at in my life is such a joyful, good place that those are the things that make you, shape you, and push you in different directions. I probably wouldn’t have ended up in L.A., and we made Deluxe out in L.A., so who knows?
I want to ask you about your book, because I think something, at least that I pulled from it, is that you don’t have to get stuck or defined by one singular moment, and you can keep changing. You can evolve whether it’s in your life or through a career, or both of them. And I was curious, now that you’ve had some time to process it and look back on it, what was the experience like putting out a book? Not the writing of it, but the whole putting out and promoting it and doing all that?
It was amazing. It was a really fun exercise to do something I had never done before. Going out and doing a book tour, humping my own box of books. I did this little book tour in a rental car in the Northeast, up where you are. Cool little towns. It felt almost like a scene out of Wonder Boys, that great movie. So, it was really cool just walking into a bookstore, a cool bookstore in D.C., and talking to people. I really loved it. I loved the process. I loved the podcast. I did all the different interviews. I’m working on another one,
Have you ever thought about doing a memoir?
A lot of people thought The Greatest Song was a memoir, but it’s not, but I definitely pulled ‘you write what you know’. But yeah, I think it’s funny, when you get sober, you really do become way less interested in yourself. And that’s part of sobriety, is losing interest in myself. And I really am about learning and listening to other people. So, there’s part of a memoir that feels like focusing on myself, and that seems kind of dangerous. And I don’t know, a pursuit I’m not sure I want to do.
But at the same time, recently, like I mentioned to you when we were doing that Behind the Music and I was talking to Kat Corbett, I found that, man, a lot of people want to know that stuff. And then just recently just telling some stories on my Instagram, the post just kind of blew up in a way that nothing else I do does. So, I was like, “Huh, maybe I should do it.” Because my story is definitely one of perseverance and endurance. And look, maybe if I could couch it in a way to where it’s inspiring, and hopefully it can be a story that inspires people, that’s what I would do. But I just have to mull it over and consider it more. It’s not at the top of the list, but maybe one day.
Ezra Ray Hart. What do you get out of that that you don’t get out of Better Than Ezra? Is it just a good time hanging out with some friends?
I’ll tell you what, it is just a completely different vehicle. It’s the ability to get together with those two guys. I sing four of my songs – we all sing four of our songs – we do other ’90s hits. And the reason I did it was because Ezra, we still get a lot of privates and corporates. We weren’t getting the corporates that we were getting back in the day. And Train was getting them or One Republic or Maroon 5. And it was a total business decision to, “Hey, let’s do Ezra Ray Hart for some corporates.” And it really just took off. And then it turned out that, “Wow, we love doing this. We have a blast.” I get to be a lead guitarist on Tonic songs. I get to play those great Sugar Ray guitar parts that are iconic. So, it’s two, it was really Ezra Ray Hart was three guys loving each other’s company, but it was also a business thing. Let’s try to compete with these bands that are getting these private – so it was a cash grab! It’s a cash crab, and it’s fucking worked. [laughs]
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:: ONE RECOMMENDATION
One is go eat at Bubby’s in Tribeca for breakfast, have their James Beard Award-winning pancakes. They’re amazing. Now they have a Bubby’s in LaGuardia that they just opened, but it’s not the same. The vibe at the original restaurant in Tribeca is super cool. Get there early because there’s a line, but the pancakes are nuts. So do that.
And then if you’re a sober person, try Athletic non-alcoholic beer. It’s great. And then a book I’m reading right now, I’m reading What We Can Know by Ian McEwan.
But Bubby’s, just go. Pancakes!
:: SEVEN OF SOMETHING
Following the episode of Love Story with “Good” in it, you took to your Instagram stories to talk about the one time you witnessed the John F. Kennedy Jr. phenomenon live and in person at the Bowery Bar in New York City, and you kind of casually dropped how Sean Penn called you over to his table. First, how did you come to know the now three-time Oscar winner? Then, give me your seven favorite Sean Penn films.
Wow. Seven favorite Sean Penn. Well, first off, I would say I don’t remember how he became a fan and when he first approached me. All I know is that at some point, I think he was at a show, maybe it was at the Mercury Lounge in New York. Early on, he showed up at a show and we traded phone numbers. And we’d already had each other’s phone number at that moment at the Bowery Bar. But this is a teaser. The best story with Sean was when he called me up on a Friday night in New Orleans. I was living in New Orleans, and he goes, “Hey, man, I’m in New Orleans. I’m seeing Elle MacPherson and we’re here for the Fashion Cafe opening. Claudia Schiffer, Elle MacPherson, Naomi Campbell, my brother, Chris Penn,” who’s passed away, “David Copperfield and Christie Turlington. Come hang out with us.” And, needless to say, I went and hung out with him, and it was a beautiful night.
I bet it was.
I’m saving that for the memoir. Seven Sean Penn films. I don’t know if I can name them, but I’ll try. I mean, obviously Fast Times at Ridgemont High.
At Close Range.
Mystic River.
Obviously One Battle After Another. Oh my God, I’ve got four. God, I’m spacing on other films. Gosh, I can’t really call. I went deep fast. I know he did films with… Well, the Charlie Sheen documentary doesn’t count because he’s in that. That’s kind of it for me. It’s going to have to be a 614. Now, if you ask me seven Tom Cruise films, well, of course… But look, I got four. I got four.
We can live with that. So we’ll frame it that you think Sean Penn only did four good movies in his career.
[laughs] And then I’ll deal with Sean next time I see him.
BETTER THAN EZRA + NINE DAYS :: Friday, March 20 at The Cabot, 286 Cabot St. in Beverly, MA :: 8 p.m., all ages, $39.50 to $69 :: Event info :: Advance tickets