For as long as he can remember, Ian Karmel has struggled with the physical and psychological effects of body image issues and weight gain. Now, he’s taking an Olympic-style dive into the deep end of his memory bank to rehash some experiences that he hoped would help him process the feelings attached to them, and in turn, help others wading in the same waters.
With the release of his first book, T-Shirt Swim Club: Stories from Being Fat in a World of Thin People, which hit shelves on June 11, the longtime stand-up comedian and podcast host takes to the page to detail his deep, and oftentimes painful experiences in dealing with being overweight for as long as he can remember. What came of the process, with the expertise of his sister, Alisa Karmel PsyD, was a cathartic and honest unveiling of Karmel’s thoughts and memories of those dark days of grade school and beyond, and what he also hopes is a form of both comedic and emotional relief for readers struggling with the same issues and to remind them they are not alone.
We recently had the chance to get on the horn with Karmel to talk about the book, the new kind of vulnerability that it brings for him, and what he hopes readers take away from their own experiences in reading it, as well as his hit podcast All Fantasy Everything coming to Somerville’s Center For The Arts at The Armory on Sunday (June 16).
Check it out.
Jason Greenough: Just starting off, thanks for connecting, Ian, and congratulations on the book. It’s a milestone that always seems like a big deal for an artist, and for good reason. Not to mention it’s just great to see a comedian of your caliber getting the kind of feedback you’ve already gotten from this.
Ian Karmel: Thank you very much. It’s unbelievable to me that it’s actually out. I went to a Barnes & Noble and saw it on the shelf, and there’s part of you that thinks it’s all just a big prank and that it’s actually never going to come out. But it is a real cool feeling.
Hell yeah, man. You love to see it. Jumping off of that, what is the overall vibe now that T-Shirt Swim Club is out in the world and these stories are here to stay?
There’s a little bit of a vibe that says ‘uh-oh, I was very vulnerable in that,’ like as you write it, you don’t realize anyone is going to read it. But on the flip side of that, it literally just came out, and I’ve already had people hit me up and be like, ‘hey man, just finished it. This is amazing,’ and to think that someone just whipped through the book in a day is huge, because that’s not something I’ve ever done myself, it feels really cool. The vibe has been very positive with a lot of people telling me they relate to it, which is what I was hoping for. I got really detailed, specific and vulnerable in telling my stories, and I want it all out there in the hopes that maybe people won’t necessarily relate to the exact same things that I went through, but rather the feelings at the core of it. So far, that has been happening, which is all I could really hope for.
I wrote this book for a lot of reasons, but one was trying to reach out to other people like me, and create a piece of something that makes people feel less alone in the experience, and I think that’s happening, which has been awesome.
You brought up the word ‘vulnerable,’ so it’s almost like you’re reading my notes here. Now, stand-up is constantly considered to be one of the most vulnerable art forms, but this story and the things you share in the book flash the spotlight on you in a different way. Was that same feeling of vulnerability present in the process of putting this book together? Or does it feel different from the vulnerability found in standing on stage and wearing your heart on your sleeve that way?
It feels more vulnerable, to be honest. In stand-up, my instinct, and what I think is the instinct of most people, and the thing that makes it stand-up as opposed to a one-person show is the pursuit of that laugh. With stand-up, you want to make sure everything, even if it’s a long story, is building to some type of humorous payout. In writing the book, I found myself stirring towards that, just because of my experience and instincts as a stand-up comedian. That’s just what you do. Also, it came from my experiences in life, too, where I became funny largely to deflect bullying, in order to sort of own it and beat people to the joke. Then I’m sitting there writing this book, I’m going through this vulnerable stuff, and I had to stop myself from always always building towards some sort of joke or sense of relief, because sometimes, I found myself doing that at the expense of vulnerability – there’s that word again – or honesty. I had to remind myself that sometimes, this stuff doesn’t fall into a nice and tidy punchline where it’s all okay. Sometimes, it’s just painful, and it’s okay to sit in that and to feel that in the writing. The way I’ve always protected myself is with humor, and there are tons of jokes in the book because I tried to fill as much as I could, and I tried to make it as relatable as I could because I relate to people through humor.
I always made sure to take a joke out where it wasn’t needed, or to lean into the awkwardness of a certain point, and the pain and reality of it. That way, it wound up being even more vulnerable than stand-up. Now, I’m not saying stand-up can’t get there, because we’ve seen some amazing examples of that, but for me, it was important to not always go there to break the tension.
What was the inspiration to deliver these stories in a book format as opposed to stand-up? A second part to that question is: How different was the literary writing process from the process of writing stand-up material?
I will actually answer that in reverse order. The process of writing a book was different from writing stand-up because the feedback loop is so much longer. I would write something for the book and then show it to my wife or my sister, who I wrote the book with, and I would get feedback on it like that. But you could never take it up on stage and try it out in front of a crowd. So for me, I just had to really sit with it and make sure that was what I wanted to say. I had to sit with it, read it again and make sure it was really what I wanted to say and what I was thinking and what I really believe. In that process, you are your own audience, and that was interesting to me.
The reason why I put all these stories in book form was, first and foremost, because I’ve always wanted to write a book. I’m a big reader, and I really love reading and writing. I’ve written for the Portland Mercury, and The Ringer, and I just wanted to flex that muscle. But also, it was something where I had a lot to say, and I just wanted that space in the long form to explore the topic and talk about it, and I especially wanted to work with my sister on it, where she has a doctorate in clinical psychology and a masters in nutrition, so she’s someone who really knows about this stuff backwards and forward. She really offered a unique perspective. One that is different than mine, but because we also have known each other our entire lives, she was able to call me on my bullshit when she needed to, and she knew when I was avoiding the truth on certain things, and I just felt it was the best format for the story we wanted to tell here.
It also felt like the most accessible way for people to pick up and have a private experience with it if they wanted to. Like, if you’re a fat person, you don’t necessarily want to go see a one-man show where there’s a fat dude talking about being fat. You could feel vulnerable in that space, like you’re going to be the butt of a joke, and I wanted this to be an experience that someone could have in the safety of their own home.
You bring up writing the book with your sister, Alisa. Now, June is of course Pride month. And maybe some people didn’t know, but it’s also Men’s Mental Health Awareness month, and the book focuses a lot on that element in terms of discussing body image issues, powered by your sister’s expertise. Did that play into the release date at all?
The release date is coincidental, but I think it’s one of those happy coincidences. Part of the motivation behind writing this book, or even having this conversation in the first place, is because I think men are a little bit more discouraged from being vulnerable when it comes to mental health, and especially fat men, but also men in general. Then there’s discouragement from admitting things are emotionally or spiritually painful, admitting that we feel vulnerable in the world, or unprotected, or persecuted in some way. Like, the soft persecution of not being able to find a t-shirt that fits, but even still. I think it’s hard for people to talk about that because, especially when you’re a fat guy, my own experience was never to feel different. I so badly wanted to feel like everyone else, and if I were to ever complain about the ways in which I felt different, or how I felt the world was unfair, that would be admitting I was different and making myself feel even more different in the process.
It’s hard for dudes to talk about that, and one of my biggest hopes is that it can get to the people who are like who I was even as recently as three or four years ago, where I was just completely avoiding my feelings and seeking out comfort wherever I could. Even if I could just a little voice in the dark telling people ‘yo, you aren’t alone in this. It’s fucked up and it feels fucked up all the time, and it’s okay to be fucked up about it, but let’s be fucked up together and talk about it and have discussions about it, and figure out how to make the world even just a little bit less fucked up for each other.’
If I can do that for even two or three people, I feel like the book will have been a success.
What was the most personally rewarding part of putting this book together?
In putting it together, my favorite part was being able to work with my sister and share our experiences with one another. Things we never talked about when we were kids. But since it’s come out, my favorite thing has been the feedback, and all the people who have reached out and said they’ve either part of the book so far, or even the whole thing, and have told me about how they’ve cried and laughed in the first few chapters, because they feel like someone is finally talking about the stuff they went through.
I’m sorry, that feels like I’m pitching the book so hard, but that’s earnestly the thing that has meant the most, and it makes me realize that it’s working. What I wanted to do is actually hitting with people, and it’s by far the most important thing to me that they feel that.
With that feedback, your initial vision, the catharsis that came from it, being able to write with your sister, and everything else that made this project so special for you, has that vulnerability — I’ll use that word one more time for good measure — opened up other creative avenues for you now that you’ve tackled such a heavy topic to cover?
That’s a great question. Once I got on the other side of it, I thought ‘I never want to talk about these issues again.’ In my stand-up, I wanted to talk about anything but my body or anything about being sensitive or vulnerable at all. I just started talking about the silliest stuff I could think of. But now, a few months removed from finishing the book, I’ve realized that there are other ways to talk about this. I’ve considered a one-man show or some other type of multimedia version. I’ve written a pilot with this at the core, and I’m currently working on that. It’s certainly opened my eyes to ways we can talk about this, and I also just really loved the process of writing a book, so that’s something I could see myself going back to. I definitely feel like it has expanded my horizons.
You love to hear it, man. I’m looking forward to jumping deeper into the book, and to have you in the area on Sunday with the All Fantasy Everything crew in Somerville. With all of the moving pieces in your career right now with the book, and your stand-up gigs, how does it feel to be bringing the podcast into a live setting for this run of shows around the country?
What’s nice about the podcast is that it doesn’t take much to turn anything on. It’s just hanging out with two of my best friends, and with Shane Torres coming with us to a few of these dates, it’s three of my best friends. So, it’s really a respite, dude. Just two hours up on stage, bullshitting with three of the funniest people. After doing press for the book, and going to bookstores to try and sell it and get the word out, it feels great to do anything with AFE.
I think a big reason why people like the podcast is because it feels like they’re just hanging out with us, because that’s exactly what we’re doing. We just kick it, and it’s not a hard thing to balance at all. I think this would be a cool process, but maybe not a fun one if we were just doing only a book tour. But it’s most likely the most fun I’ll have all year.
There you go, Ian. The art of the random conversation is such a beautiful thing because it can become a completely separate beast all by itself, without even noticing it.
I think being silly about serious things and to be serious about silly things is one of life’s great joys.
ALL FANTASY EVERYTHING :: Sunday, June 16 at The Center for the Arts at The Armory, 191 Highland Ave. in Somerville, MA :: 7 p.m., $35 :: Advance tickets